Questions about Clown, Joy and Zen with Roshi Egyoku

January 29th, 07

Conversation between Moshe and Roshi Wendy Egyoku Nakai at the Zen Center in Los Angeles.
Note. The word laughter in parentheses refers to moments in the conversation when Egyoku laughed, or we both laughed.

M : Reflecting on our discussion about kokoro, heart-mind, I get the feeling that perhaps one can just chuck the word spiritual out the window when trying to describe the depth that clown can achieve, and stick with the word heart.

In clown I feel that I am expressing joy, love, bringing light into a situation. I perceive this joy to be something innate within us, something alive within us. I’m not confused yet I am not clear either, how one views joy and celebration from a Zen perspective? Are there emotions, or are those things we just channel? Is joy an emotion? Is it something that we are born with? Is this idea of enlightenment that we are connecting with the element, and that joy is part of that element?

E: With enlightenment, what you are connecting with is the wholeness of life, which includes joy. What is coming up for me is this cultural overlay that Buddhism kind of has. Of course wherever you go, it is a little bit different. Coming from Japan, in the way that It has come to us, it has been rather joyless. (laughter) I don’t think that is necessarily what it is. The celebration, if I look at other temples that are not Zen, say Pure Land, there is a lot of celebrations, community celebrations. I think that maybe where we get caught in Zen sometimes is that real focus on getting enlightened. In the very particular context of a sesshin for example, that is sort of a joyless undertaking, I think in the way a lot of us have experienced it. It got very macho, the kind of rigor of it, it was not joy freeing (laughter), it is not joy-filled. It is not joy friendly (more laughter). I think that a lot of it is really changing.
As people realize “hey, it’s about the wholeness of my being” and there is nothing that can be excluded from that.
The word that came up for me as you were speaking is the word “delight”. In a way, clowning is about for delight, the aspect of delight in the ordinariness of life.

M: Very true, especially from the Hopi perspective who use the term “delight maker” to describe clown.

The question that comes up is –are all emotions within this whole? That brings me back to the question are we supposed to know what that whole is, or just know that it is and that is good enough?

E: Depends on the person. Some people need to know what that is> (laughter)
For some people that (not knowing) is good enough. (laughter continues).

M:Is that a koan? What is the whole?

E: ‘What is this?’

M: Is there an answer

E: Well the answer ends up being-how do you live your life, and how you understand, or rather how do you experience…it is not so much of an understanding, in terms of a mental, intellectual understanding; but experientially, how one embodies what one can call these, what you call, basic principles of life.

M: the reason I ask is because in clown one expresses joy and shares that. The question comes up: where does that come from, my ability to channel that. The strong ability which I’ve developed, but is also innate, which is why I do what I do. In Zen can one ask what is the source?

E: Yes, what is the source? Absolutely, we ask that question?

M: Is it a koan, or is there an answer.

E: what is the source, or where do things come from is a very fundamental koan. The fundamental answer is ‘We don’t know.’ Yet we may experience that and have a sense of that source.

M: That’s part of the not knowing.

E: Yeah.

M: If you observe babies, and the power of their joy is so connected with the source, and as they become older, that becomes more sheltered. Yesterday, someone was asking me about innocence, if we lose our innocence. I replied that it just kind of gets boxed in.

E: Dampened down.

M: Or buried.

E: It’s interesting, you know this word enlightened, we become lighter. Because all of the things that box us really begins to just simply in dissolve,

M: So you can connect more with that…

E: Yeah, and the nature that emerges is sort of our natural way of being. I think that kind of buoyancy and joy is really quite a natural thing to experience. You know, when you have shed, when a lot of things have fallen away, and what not. I think that is very natural.

Now it can be that one has grown up in an environment where that is considered not to be a good thing, and people don’t want you to laugh and smile and be happy. There is a lot of that kind of thing that has to be worked through. It gets to be very complex, all of this thicket to go through. (laughter)

M: Can one look at enlightenment as the ability to connect with the source?

E: Yeah, more than connect, but to embody it.

M: And that embodiment includes all the joy and…

E: Yeah, yeah. There is nothing excluded. Nothing is excluded. That is kind of a scary point for people, right?

M: Well, because there is the other side…

E: yeah, but for some people, including joy is a huge challenge. It is a scary thing. It is more scary than dealing with all of the shadow side. (laughter) Issues, that people are familiar with, all of people their psychic realm is all of those shadowy things and to be joyous is like whoa.

I think that we have a tendency to misunderstand that lightness of being does not mean frivolous and superficial, and all of those things. I think that it’s important to state that clearly.

M: I agree. Yes people do have that assumption. “Oh you’re a clown, oh you are acting a child. Be an adult. Oh that show is for children, it not for me. It’s not serious. (laughter)

E: Right right. A lack of certain depth. A very superficial way of holding things. I think we have a lot of that in our culture.

We’re serious. (laughter)

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